Обсуждение:Государственный переворот в Турции (1980)

Section on American involvment is false, miscited, mistranslated and should be deleted

The section on American involvement is based on mistranslation and distortion. It has been elaborated on English wiki's discussion page of this article and it is removed from English wiki. Here is the relevant discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1980_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Section_on_American_involvment_is_false,_miscited_and_mistranslated The content creators have been challenged and none of them appeared. I copy paste the rebuttal here:

Section on American involvment is false, miscited and mistranslated

I checked the cited source (reference number 32): http://0wikipedia.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly93ZWIuYXJjaGl2ZS5vcmcvd2ViLzIwMDcwNzE0MTAzOTE5L2h0dHA6Ly9hcnNpdi56YW1hbi5jb20udHIvMjAwMy8wNi8xNC9oYWJlcmxlci9oMi5odG0. The translated part in the source does not match the one translated here. It is a mistranslation. I will elaborate. First, let me quote the wiki paragraph:

" After the government was overthrown, Henze cabled Washington, saying, "our boys [in Ankara] did it."[32]"

BUt if you check the source, it reads in Turkish: "Tam olarak ne söylediğini hatırlamıyorum. Ama hatırladığım kadarı ile Ulusal Güvenlik Konseyi’nde o sırada görev başında olan kişi beni aradığında şuna benzer bir şey söyledi: “Ankara’daki çocuklar bu işi yaptı...”"

It means "I do not recall exactly. As far as I remember, as then head of National security agency called me told something like this: "Guys in ANkara did it.""

What is the difference? THe wiki sections says "Paul Henze called Washington and reported our guys in ankara did it" while the source says "Paul henze is reported from Washington as "guys in ankara did it."

Moreover, according to the source, Paul Henze thought that the head of the USA did not have foreknowledge of the upcoming coup. Paul Henze himself was informed in the same evening in which coup was executed. AS he was informed he immediately called Washington and informed president Carter, he found this news positive and they started to wait it. A day after washington reckoned it a good news.

Contrary to wiki article, the interview of Paul Henze suggests that the USA did not arrange or support the coup, they were not involved in it. They had preknowledge of the coup hours before, they thought it will be a good news and they waited it. They were fan of the coup and that is why they said "guys in ankara did it" contrary to "Our guys in ankara did it."

Please either delete the section or amend it as soon as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir artur (talk • contribs) 00:32, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Moreover, parts of the section relies on biased sources, subjective ideas. I propose to delete the section and then add new one: Mythinformation about the USA involvement. Then we shall add the correct translation of Paul Henze's interview and we shall state that contrary to common belief, Paul Henze did not say "our boys in ankara did it", he rather was reported from Washington something like "guys in ankara did it", Paul Henze knew about the coup on that evening and he informed washington of the upcoming coup, President was unaware of the coup. ANd till that evening, even CIA chief of Ankara station was unaware which from that we can conclude the usa was not involved in the coup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir artur (talk • contribs) 00:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Where are the creators of the content? If they do not show up with reliable sources, I declare the section shall be deleted and I am gonna delete it. What do you say? Any opposition? Or do we need an official translation from sworn translator to delete it? The translation written here does not match the one that is in the source. It is a misinformation to the public, we should stop it, we ought to stop it and we have to stop it. Sir artur (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

No objections here.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:27, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I deleted that misinformations. If anyone wants to re-add it, he/she has to demonstrate it before re-adding it. Their source does not say what they say it says. Moderators, do not block me if this page becomes a place of controversy. Those who added that parts added it based on a mistranslation, if they want to add it they have to demonstrate it. --Sir artur (talk) 10:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Turkish wikipedia refuses to delete the relevant section even after I provided them the transcript of the interview and the footage of the interview. Their patrol (or moderator?) refuses to accept the change. Where should I appeal? They write baseless informations on their wikipedia. They are spreading a disinformation. Here is the footage of the interview of Paul Henze: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDe202SS4Kk&t=1098s

Between 14:34 - 1459 (Quoted by Paul Henze) : “He didnt leave, it was no reason to leave. That was basically a very positive development. The next day, Washington was relieved. I remember receiving a call from the National Security Council, saying something like, ‘The boys in Ankara did it’.”

( 12 September Documentary by Mehmed Ali Birand / Part 7 )

So, where can I file my complain about the patrol of Turkish wikipedia? --Sir artur (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

The section was re-added even after I deleted it, @Pragdon: keeps on re-adding it without demonstrating anything and ignoring all the rebuttals forwarded to him. He/she is preventing me from doing the same thing in Turkish wikipedia. Where should I appeal to solve this problem? Prevent him from spreading a misinformation.~~---- ~~----

Update the section on American involvement

Hi there. After a deep analysis, section on American involvement is discovered to be a distortion. On English wiki we have updated the section according the sources and findings. Can someone update it? Here is the difference: "The American involvement in this coup was alleged to have been acknowledged by the CIA Ankara station chief Paul Henze. Journalist Mehmet Ali Birand in his book wrote that after the government was overthrown, Henze cabled Washington, saying, "our boys did it."[30] Henze denied American involvement in the coup during a June 2003 interview on CNN Türk's Manşet[citation needed], but two days later Birand presented an interview with Henze recorded in 1997 according to which a diplomat rather than Henze informed the president, saying "Boys in Ankara did it."[31] "

It turned out that according to the tape shared by the journalist, the message was delivered by a diplomat rather than Henze and the message was "Boys in Ankara did it" instead of "Our boys did it.

Here is the citation from the source: "Kasete göre, Başkan Carter’a Ankara’daki darbeyi haber veren Henze değil, başka bir diplomat. Ancak olayı Birand’a anlatan Henze, “Ankara’daki çocuklar başardı.” şeklindeki mesajın Carter’a iletildiğini anlatıyor" Someone with the knowledge of Turkish can check it, "Ankaradaki çocuklar" means "ребята в Анкаре."

Moreover, information given by General Kenan Evren in a press conference held after the government was overthrown was also added to the section. It comes from his book written back in 1990. Please, update the section as soon as possible.--Ruhubelent (обс.) 19:49, 13 июня 2018 (UTC)

Салтык и Эврен

В оригинале "On 11 September 1979, General Kenan Evren ordered a hand-written report from full general Haydar Saltık " - то есть скорее переводиться как отдал приказ о том, чтобы подготовить рапорт. И рапорт подал Салтык Эврену, но не наоборот. "The report, which recommended preparing for a coup, was delivered in six months" - скорее переводиться, как то, что рапорт был подготовлен через 6 месяцев. Это правда не совпадает с последующшм текстом , что "A second report, submitted in March 1980" - то есть , получается второй и первый рапорт появились одновременно. Это вряд ли. Второй вариант "delivered" - это значит что Эврен рассказал другим генералам через 6 месяцев. В очень очень трудный и непонятный текст, одно ясно , что у русского текста есть некое несоотвествие английскому. -- Рулин (обс.) 22:03, 8 января 2019 (UTC)