Обсуждение:Выборгско-Петрозаводская операция

Материал из Википедии — свободной энциклопедии
Перейти к навигации Перейти к поиску

Untitled[править код]

"Тем самым Советское государство наглядно продемонстрировало добрую волю и стремление к установлению добрососедских отношений с Финляндией."- меня одного тошнит от стиля этой статьи?Totalserg 07:56, 20 марта 2009 (UTC)

Soviet casualty numbers[править код]

Krivoshejev gives the numbers previously presented in this page, but they are unfortunately not correct ones, as they only count losses at Karelian Isthmus up to the capture of Vyborg, June 20, thus leaving out the time between June 21 and July 15, when the order to stop the offensive at Karelian Isthmus was finally given. Thus it leaves out the casualties of the heavy fighting of those days when 21st and 23rd army tried to fulfill their orders to reach Lake Saimaa and Priozersk. Also the casualties from the battles in Ladoga Karelia at the early days of August near Ilomantsi are missing from Krivoshejev's statistics.

It is understandable that operations against Germany are getting the interest of Russian military historians, but I want to encourage students of history to research also Finnish front of the war, as it is still the least known and researched front of the Great Patriotic War. It would also bring also Soviet/Russian point of view better in international discussion, as it is now dominated by Finnish researchers, as they seems to be only ones with genuine interest to the issue.

Oh, and the numbers were from a Finnish book by Ohto Manninen, one of the foremost researchers of the war and he has used extensively documents from Soviet Ministry of Defence, mainly from the corps level casualty reports of the participated units to reach those numbers. Published as Molotovin cocktail, Hitlerin sateenvarjo, 1993, Painatuskeskus--Whiskey 00:03, 12 февраля 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be contradicting information about the losses Soviet army suffered during the operation. Ilya Moshansky gives in Sturm Karelskogo Vala. Vyborgsko-Petrozavodskaja strategicheskaja nastupatelnaja operazija 10 ijuna - 9 avgusta 1944 goda. ("Vojennaja Letopis", BTV-MN, Moscow, 2005) the casualty numbers of 23,674 KIA and 72,701 WIA, which are exactly same numbers as in G.F. Krivoshejev's Grif sekretnosti snjat. I look right now in front of me a photocopy of the table from Krivoshejev's book (English translation), and there reads: "Leningrad Front, right wing (21st and 23rd Armies, 13th Air Army; 10.06-20.06.44)" (highlight mine) in the next column, there is a number of formations, and it also is incomplete: "rifle divisions-15, fortified areas-2, ind.tank brigades-1" as in reality even in the given timeframe at least 22 rifle divisions (45, 63, 64 Guards RD, 178, 358, 372, 46, 90, 314, 72, 109, 286, 168, 265, 268, 13, 177, 92, 281, 381, 10, 142 RD), up to 4 tank brigades (30 Gurds, 1, 152, 220), at least 2 artillery divisions (5 Guards and 15), 32 AD artillery division, at least 3 pioneer brigades (17 Sturm, 20, 52) and other units participated in fighting at Karelian Isthmus. (See http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%8B%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F )

So, the data in Krivoshejev's book and in all other books which derive their numbers from Krivoshejev are incomplete. The numbers at Leningrad front are most likely correct up to the 20.06. although there are those missing divisions, but the numbers are totally missing from 21.06.-15.07., almost a month, before the order to move to defensive is given by Govorov. --Whiskey 08:17, 14 февраля 2007 (UTC)

Finnish air force losses between June 13-17[править код]

Concerning the text "Советские летчики с 13 по 17 июня совершили 6705 самолето-вылетов. За это время они провели 33 воздушных боя и сбили 43 вражеских самолета.", the Finnish sources, like War diaries of fighter and bomber wings and flight execution announcements only give 5 lost planes (MT-414(14.6.), MT-420(16.6.), MT-227(17.6.), MT-229(17.6.) and MT-419(17.6.)) during the given timeframe. The number of air fights at Karelian Isthmus corresponds to the Soviet numbers. --Whiskey 01:00, 19 октября 2007 (UTC) 19:49, 8 марта 2009 (UTC)

PoV pushing[править код]

The article in its current form has parts with PoV pushing, ranging from "(Finland) after being defeated at the front....facing catastrophe" - as if the offensive, which did not reach its planned goal in Finland or destroy the Finnish army, (which was in better fighting shape than before) was a victory as painted in the article, even though it was a stalemate - to "result" focusing and pointing only to "massive Finnish casualties" whilst ignoring the much more numerous Soviet casualties. Parts of the article seem more like writings from Pravda with Soviet PoV pushing. Serious rewriting is needed.

The entire article was a copyvio from an external site. Deleted. --Illythr (Толк?) 17:42, 2 мая 2009
Maybe you should write your finnish PoV about "better fighting shape", result and goals in finnish article. 21:58, 30 июня 2009 (UTC)